Comments on The Minority Report: Contrast.

Doc J, You refer to the "entire sortid history of ...

2006-11-28T11:01:00.000-08:00

Doc J,

You refer to the "entire sortid history of the 2004 Washington State governor election".....

What, exactly, was sordid about it? The supposedly "found" ballots resulted from things like....different numbers of ballots than estimated, etc. -- the NORMAL things that happen in ANY election.

But don't take my word for it. Listen to the Republican judge who decided the case after months of depositions and fact gathering by the Republicans who brought the case and then weeks of trial testimony: no evidence of fraud, WHATSOEVER.

You want to deal in innuendo, but the Republicans spent millions trying to prove that the 2004 Wash. governor's election was "stolen." They failed miserably. Innuendo about fraud won't cut it at this point.

But although you've descended into a silly argument that the court was wrong and you actually have better knowledge (from news articles and blog posts, etc.) than the court (and/or the teams of Republican lawyers and investigators) did, that's not even the real point here.

The real point is that you tried to draw some distinction between the supposed "class" of Republicans in avoiding court fights over elections. But you're obviously wrong -- the Republicans bring court fights about elections when they think they can win (even if they're terribly off-base, as they were in Washington). So do Democrats.

And it doesn't matter whether an "anonymous" or named poster points it out. You're dead wrong either way. Deal with it substantively, instead of attacking the name (or lack of a name) on the post. Likewise, you can spout all you want about your supposed inside information about why you personally know that there was fraud in Washington in 2004, but that also won't make you look any smarter in claiming that the Republicans have the "classy" high ground in avoiding court fights over elections.

Particularly when the one big court fight claiming misconduct in an election is one that the Republicans lost.

Don't you just love when Al Franken comes into our...

2006-11-27T19:52:00.000-08:00

Don't you just love when Al Franken comes into our house and leaves a big on on the rug, under the cover of anonymity, and then slips out the back door!

Democrat Party, the Party of Litigation!

Dave Hinz

Final summary - before I leave this thread for goo...

2006-11-27T19:27:00.000-08:00

Final summary - before I leave this thread for good as it's obvious no minds are going to change and we're only going to end up flaming each other ...

For what it's worth - I don't think we will ever really, truly know who received more of the actual votes cast in FL-13, or CT-2, or the Washington State Governor's race in 2004, or Florida in 2000, or the WA and MO Senate races in 2000, or CT-2 in 1994 (decided by 21 votes), or IL and TX in 1960, or any number of absurdly close races that could just as well be decided by a coin flip. That's because most if not all of these races fall within the margin of what can reasonably be expected accuracy even for something as simple as the automated tallying of ballots.

And so long as we just absolutely, positively have to know who won the election before the polls close in Alaska and Hawaii, then automated tallies there's gonna be.

But in the past these things came down to "sometimes stuff happens", and unless there is obvious evidence that fraud swung the election (and sometimes even when there is such evidence - see 1960) it's usually best, and has been more-or-less standard bipartisan practice, for everyone involved to apply the Life's Not Fair™ principle and move on.

But once the litigation genie is out of the bottle, it's not going to get put back in.

Thanks for that, Al.

Wow, an anonymous comment bringing-up and then tot...

2006-11-27T18:21:00.000-08:00

Wow, an anonymous comment bringing-up and then totally ignoring the entire sortid history of the 2004 Washington State governor election fiasco (from the thousands of "found" ballots days after the polls closed in King County to the "Hey, we won so we can stop counting now" from the WA Dems through the incompetently pursued lawsuit by the WA GOP). Certainly a great moment in US electoral history, that.

Now that's impressive. I'm quaking. Truly. The mind boggles.

Perhaps by Republican "class" in not bringing a cl...

2006-11-27T16:30:00.000-08:00

Perhaps by Republican "class" in not bringing a close election result to court, you're referring to the multimillion dollar lawsuit brought in by the Republicans to attempt to unseat the governor of Washington following the 2004 election.

For a summary of the judge's decision against the Republicans after the lengthy trial, read here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/06/AR2005060600190.html.

Is this the type of "class" you're referring to?

Give me a break.

Hey j andrew...Point 1 - read the comment directly...

2006-11-27T13:52:00.000-08:00

Hey j andrew...

Point 1 - read the comment directly above yours. If the machines checked-out prior to the election, why are we supposed to assume they didn't work when it counted?

Point 2 - which election that a Democrat lost closely falls within this margin of error? Pick one - either CT-2 (0.03%) or FL-13 (0.1%)? Here's a hint - all of the still contested races have republicans leading and democrat challengers protesting. Coincidence?

Point 3 - Other than to suggest you're not nearly on ground that is as firm as you think, go re-fight the 2000 election somewhere else.

Point 4 - Oh, we're not allowed to be partisans here? Gee, who knew. Thanks for pointing out what we're not allowed to do on our own blog - I'm sure my colleagues will be similarly moved by your brilliance.

Point 5 - take it (the relative Democrat lean of the district) up with Charlie Cook. Alternatively, you can do the math yourself using Dave Leip's fine website. But if you're too lazy and want my work product, I think NM-1 (Wilson) comes in second, followed closely by KY-3 (Northrop). Happy?

And finally - they are not "Democratic" areas - if you are trying to call-out the partisan lean, they are "Democrat" areas. So take your (s.i.c.) and shove it.

What other districts did you consider in your dete...

2006-11-27T13:37:00.000-08:00

What other districts did you consider in your determination that Rob Simmons district was "the most Democrat(s.i.c.)-leaning district in the nation held by a Republican"?

Which district came in second in your comparisons? Which district came in third?

So FL-13's 18,000 non-votes in heavily Democratic ...

2006-11-27T13:34:00.000-08:00

So FL-13's 18,000 non-votes in heavily Democratic districts for only this race is simply democratic whining.

Why is the fact that Democrats lost in many other close races which you did not choose to highlight is not relevant in your analysis of how all Democrats act?

Why did you choose to single out the one race that was contested through the same legal channels established and used by George W. Bush when he filed suit in 2000 in your analysis of how all Democrats act in defeat?

Your post is so riddled with partisianship as to make any content you were attempting to convey (other than Democrats=bad) almost indecipherable.

Nice work.

Oh my, the fabled "undervotes in Democrat areas" c...

2006-11-27T13:25:00.000-08:00

Oh my, the fabled "undervotes in Democrat areas" charge. When all else fails, we go to that one. How quaint. Leads one to wonder why precisely it is we always tend to get these "undervotes" almost uniformly centered in "Democrat areas".

Must be Haliburton™ at work.

So, are we to assume these machines were not checked-out prior to the Big Dance? And if they checked-out A-OK prior to the election we're supposed to assume they didn't function properly when it counted - well - because the losing campaign said so?

Bah.

You fail to mention the 18,000 undervotes in a pre...

2006-11-27T12:56:00.000-08:00

You fail to mention the 18,000 undervotes in a predominately Democratic area. That may have something to do with why the Democrats are contesting this.